What Happens When We Disagree? with Dr. Jeff Glenn

Clinging to research findings at the expense of understanding another’s perspective may hinder progress in the world of policy. Dr. Jeff Glenns shares with us best practices for health policymaking, emphasizing the importance of listening to others and understanding the political climate surrounding public health. 

 As avid Survivor fans, Glenn and Dr. Cougar Hall also reflect on life lessons they’ve learned from the reality tv show.

 Bio

 Dr. Jeff Glenn is a BYU professor best known by undergraduate students for his teachings on policy. Glenn completed his Doctor of Public Health (DrPH) at the Harvard TH Chan School of Public Health where he studied health policy and systems change. Prior to his doctoral education, Glenn worked as a Presidential Management Fellow and Public Health Advisor at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) in Atlanta, GA where he helped establish the agency’s global cancer program. He holds a Master of Public Administration (MPA) from the University of Southern California and a BA in International Relations from Brigham Young University. Glenn grew up in Salt Lake City, UT and enjoys spending time outdoors and traveling to new places with his wife, Kathryn, and their three children.

Learn more about the campus conversations Dr. Glenn discussed here.

Recorded, Edited & Produced by Christy Gonzalez, Harper Xinyu Zhang, and Tanya Gale

Transcript

cougar: [00:00:00] Dr. Jeff Glenn, welcome to the Y Health Podcast. Thanks for joining us.

cougar: So excited to have you on the show. 

cougar: Will you take a minute and just introduce yourself? 

Jeff Glenn: Thanks. Good to be here. So, quick background, I guess.

Jeff Glenn: So I grew up in Utah most of my life. I went to Cottonwood High School, grew up in the Holiday area in Salt Lake City, and serve my mission in Bolivia. And I came back for my mission and I was interested in international issues and I wanted to do something that helped the world be better, but I had no idea what that was.

Jeff Glenn: So I studied international relations and international development at BYU and became really interested in not just international issues, but public policy more generally. I did the Washington Seminar program, and learned a lot. Came back to BYU to finish and decided to do my master's in public administration cuz I was interested in just like all the different ways that public policy could solve problems and sometimes make problems worse.

Jeff Glenn: And so I did my Master's of public [00:01:00] administration, my MPA at University of Southern California studying local government, and did an internship with Governor Schwarzenegger's office and doing just like, kind of exploring, did an international internship experience in China and lots of different experiences.

Jeff Glenn: And as I was graduating, I was nominated for and received I guess became a presidential Management Fellowship finalist. And that gave me an opportunity to interview for all these jobs in the federal government. And I planned to still work in local government, but.

Jeff Glenn: I might as well give this a shot. And I ended up getting a job offer at the cdc and I had no idea what public health was at the time, but it was a policy job and it was a job to work in global health, working on cancer prevention and control. And I thought, this sounds great. It matches some of my personal experiences and went there, fell in love with public health.

Jeff Glenn: I spent five years at the CDC. And decided I wanted to go back to school to do a doctorate. Ended up doing a doctor of public health, a DRPH program [00:02:00] at the Harvard School of Public Health and studied health systems and policy and public health leadership and I planned to go back to the CDC decided while I was there that I really loved to teach and loved to explore ideas and do research and, and this job opened up at BYU and I guess all the stars aligned and I ended up here.

Jeff Glenn: And so here I am. 

cougar: We're so lucky to have you. That is, that is quite the education and, and work experience. I mean, you're going from USC to CDC to the, the Chan school. Really impressive

cougar: but based on what I hear from my students, they're constantly telling me that your class is their favorite.

cougar: That the health policy class is the one they look forward to the most, the one they learn the most. I am scared to death of policy, Jeff. That is like, those are the trenches, right? That's where stuff gets done, but it's, it's a scary place to be. Tell me, how do you approach policy in your. , how are you teaching our students to prepare for this?

Jeff Glenn: [00:03:00] Yeah good question. So, I like to define policy in the broadest possible way. So a lot of health policy classes, you'd only talk about public policy, which is like government made policy, but we talk a lot about all the different ways that private companies make health policy and churches make health policy and nonprofit organizations make health policy and and that health policy is what is.

Jeff Glenn: By health organizations. So the Department of Health and Human Services in Congress, when they pass health reform laws, that's all health policy. health policies, also policy made in other sectors like education and economic development that affects health and that specifically affects the conditions in which people live, work, and play these social determinants of health.

Jeff Glenn: And so all of that, I think, is on the table as health policy. So we talk about all of those issues in my class and we tend to talk a lot about whatever is the hot policy topics of the day. So a few [00:04:00] years ago it was a lot of vaping stuff and then for the last two and a half, three years, it's been COVID and it just kind of depends on what's in the news.

Jeff Glenn: So I try to make it really relevant to people's experiences. We talk about , all these different areas of health policy and we talk about healthcare policy and health systems. And I think that's really relevant to people cuz everyone in my class has had some experience with the health system.

Jeff Glenn: And I ask them about those experiences and I, I ask people, ask students to make it personal for them and draw on their own experiences as we talk about these frameworks and kind of big picture academic ideas of how policy is made and how health systems are run and created.

cougar: Yeah, exactly. And I don't know why I'm so afraid of it, Jeff. I think because whenever there's a policy proposed, there's gonna be two sides. At least two sides. And some are gonna be adamantly opposed, and some are gonna be strongly in favor. I think actually when you first came to BYU you interviewed me [00:05:00] and, and we created a little vignette for one of your classes, and it was me in a former life as a high school teacher.

cougar: Yeah. I was really trying to work with the school administration to get rid of vending machines and their quote unquote students store, which sold nothing but junk food and I ultimately lost that battle. But my concern was schools are here to educate children and to put them in the best possible situation where they can learn and grow and develop for their future.

cougar: And yet, the things that they were selling, the products that the students were consuming at this school, which didn't have a cafeteria, I should mention. So all of it was just junk food and candy and soda. Those, those limited food offerings I felt were detrimental. were, were a hurdle, an unnecessary hurdle to student learning.

cougar: The pushback though was who are you to say what kids can and can't eat? So it ultimately wound up in their individual freedoms were in opposition to [00:06:00] what I thought was the purpose and the role of the school and the collective good. So I feel like there's always those two forces at tug of war. How do you, how do you navigate those forces?

Jeff Glenn: Yeah, I wish I knew . That's a good question. Yeah. I think that's the challenge with policy making because, because it's hard to make a policy that's optimal for everybody. There's always gonna be exceptions. And so how do you make a policy that's gonna be the, the best for you know, the majority of people, but that also allows for people who disagree or people who want to do different things to do those things and still have it be kind of the, have the policy be in the public interest. 

Jeff Glenn: And so I think that's really hard. I think that's where policy making becomes really challenging. And so one of the things that we talk a lot about in my class, you know, in public health, we often act like the thing that trumps everything is the scientific evidence, right? [00:07:00] Like if we have evidence-based policy, if we have a bunch of good research articles that say, this is the most important thing and this is what policy should look like, then we just like throw our hands up in there and can't believe that that's not what policy makers are doing.

Jeff Glenn: And but, but we, and we. Sometimes behave as if we're above the politics of it. But I think the important thing to realize is that there's always politics involved, right? It's like power and money and who gets what and how and why. And that's the tricky thing about policymaking. So I think I, I've, I've had a comment in my student ratings before that says something like, why can't he just leave the politics out of these discussions about policy?

Jeff Glenn: Right? Not that I'm pushing, or at least I'm trying not to push. political views of mine, but I also think it's, it's hard, it, it, it's impossible to talk about policy and scientific evidence without talking about how politics influences those things. So I think that's the. important thing for us in public health is to, to [00:08:00] remember is that there's always gonna be some political element.

Jeff Glenn: And so we can either ignore it and try to be above it and not be effective in advocating for and doing research on public health policies. Or we can embrace it and try to analyze it and understand the politics and figure out how. get involved in that part of it. And that involves like, weighing these competing interests and looking at the, the values of different stakeholders and trying to you know, again, pass, create and advocate for policies that are the best we can do, even though they might not work for everybody.

cougar: Oh, wow. Really well said. And that again, is really messy, isn't it? And I think we've seen that. So we're seeing this right now. As state legislatures are meeting, and it seems that the topic that is first and and foremost on the front burner is abortion rights. And this is just on the hills of quite a policy tug of war between COVID and COVID mandates, [00:09:00] and whether that's vaccine or masking or closing schools.

cougar: Like, so you've been doing this for a couple years straight without a breather, and I, I'm just wondering. , how do, how do we get to a place where we really are able to listen to the different voices and we're able to, moreover than listen, really communicate effectively with people who have strong opinions and sometimes have strong opinions based on moral grounds, which, which can really be a challenge for many.

Jeff Glenn: Yeah. Another really good question. And, and before we talk about this, I should, oh, please. Yeah. give the caveat that I'm really bad at. One of the reasons that I study this is cuz I wanna learn to do better for myself at talking with people across differences and I have a lot to learn.

Jeff Glenn: So, you know, I can share my thoughts, but by no means am I saying like, do what I'm doing because, you know, I have a lot, a lot of room to improve 

cougar: the gospel according to Jeff.

cougar: Yeah. Okay. Absolutely not. .

Jeff Glenn: So I [00:10:00] think one thing, and we talk a lot about this in my class, is that this idea that I was talking about is that we think that people make rational decisions based on evidence and, weighing the data and deciding what to do.

Jeff Glenn: But there's a lot of research, and I'm not a psychologist and I don't do this research, but I, I read a lot of this and draw on a lot of this stuff. Showing how people make decisions and this, this is how policy makers decisions and this make decisions and how we make decisions in our individual lives.

Jeff Glenn: But it's a lot more emotion based and and not as rational as we think. So psychologists talk about motivated reasoning and so we think we can talk to someone and if we have a really good argument or we have the evidence or whatever we can say. Just, just share that with them and if we can communicate it well enough, then they will say, great.

Jeff Glenn: You've convinced me. But the, the, I guess the trickier, the more complex the issue is, I think the less likely we are to be able to convince someone [00:11:00] or bring them to our side with a rational, like what we think is a logical evidence-based argument. Cuz people make decisions based on emotions and a lot of it based on their identities, like who, what groups they're loyal to, what groups they identify with. And so that's this motivated reasoning. The psychologist, I know you've read a lot of by Jonathan Hyatt. Yeah. But he, he talks about, I and I, I love this analogy. He talks about the press secretary, you know, the President's press secretary never agrees with reporters and says, you know what, what?

Jeff Glenn: You're right. You've convinced me the president is making a mistake. I'll talk to him about it. The press secretary's job is to say the decision has already been made for the press secretary and the press secretary's job is to justify this decision the best they can to put, to spin it, right, right. To, to spin everything.

Jeff Glenn: And Jonathan Heights says that we all have a press secretary in our head. So that's, so we make decisions not all the time, but I guess our natural way of making decisions is to, we make a, an emotional decision based on a [00:12:00] number of different factors, including which group we identify with or which tribe we belong to.

cougar: Mm-hmm.

Jeff Glenn: and then this press secretary in our head tries to justify this decision the best way that we can. And sometimes if we have evidence on our side that can be with evidence, and sometimes that's just you know, different bias, confirmation bias. I heard this thing and this thing aligns with what I want to think.

Jeff Glenn: And so this is the, the only thing that I'm gonna agree with, even though like we, if we look at all the evidence together as a whole body, we might. Not have that same position. And so that's, that's how I think the first thing to really understand is like, that's how most people, we tend to make decisions.

Jeff Glenn: Not, not just other people like me too, right? Mm-hmm. like us, Cougar. Even though we've, we're like somewhat aware of this, we're still all do this. And so I think to talk with people to your, to your question about these complex. About policy issues. It's important to understand that. And we're gonna hit dead end if we're dealing with some of these issues.

Jeff Glenn: And we just try [00:13:00] to like use logic to wrestle people to our side and we're gonna be a lot more successful when we start really trying to listen and ask questions and be curious and understand why people think what they think. And, and also when. We, we don't I guess like prejudge them or make assumptions about them because of what they think, because I think, right people can, most people are good people and we're trying to do the best we can with the information that we have.

Jeff Glenn: And so really trying to understand where people are coming from, I think is an important first step in trying to have productive discussions about these types of issues.

cougar: So agree to everything you just said, and it is so messy. Yeah. So that, that if you only knew what I knew fallacy, right? Yeah. If, if you just knew what I knew and how, how condescending that can, that can feel when you hear, you know, anyway, when that's the message.

cougar: Yeah. 

Jeff Glenn: It's like, well, we could, we could show them how not to do it right now. We could [00:14:00] have a discussion on something we disagree 

Jeff Glenn: with. Yeah. 

Jeff Glenn: Should we 

cougar: talk about the NFL? Should we talk about World Cup? What do you wanna know? I just think it's really challenging because you're right. We all have that press secretary in our head and I'm reading and I'm searching for information most of the time to confirm that bias that I have, right?

cougar: And so to really approach learning with humility, I think I say this in every episode, to approach learning with humility, to really listen to each other with both. and say, well, this is a perspective that I don't have. This is a, a lens that I'm not seeing and interpreting the world through, and I'm gonna humble myself and see what I can learn from this person.

cougar: I you mentioned Jonathan Height and you did a terrific job. You applied for a grant through a foundation that Jonathan Height actually was a founder or co-founder of, it's called the Heterodox Academy, and the concern is making sure that we actually hear all the voices. And that we're not, you know, meaning one way or the other too much at the university in particular.[00:15:00] 

cougar: And so you received funding for that about a year ago, and it was to engage in a program on campus where students do what you've just explained. They really listen to each other. They're able to share their view, but they have an audience who is really listening to them. We called it campus conversations.

cougar: And, and we teamed with a local group that is expert in that, cuz you and I were still learning. And I thought it was just a fantastic project. Do you want to just explain a little bit about that whole process and what, and what it resulted in? Is 

cougar: that all right Jeff? 

Jeff Glenn: Yeah, sure. Yeah, this was, this kind of stemmed, I know Cougar, you and I had talked about this for the last couple years.

Jeff Glenn: And we. both recognize, I think, our shortcomings and having these iss, these types of conversations and the need for us, and especially for students in a university setting to be able to have conversations with people they disagree with on really hard, divisive, complex issues. And so for me, you know, I had had interest in this, but I think [00:16:00] COVID really showed me the need to, to do.

Jeff Glenn: For me and for all of us to do better around the having these types of conversations. And so when this grant opportunity, I'd been talking with living room conversations and had, had participated in some meetings and some trainings with them. And the opportunity came for a grant to get some funding, to do a project, to use these tools to, to help students have.

Jeff Glenn: Better dialogue about these divisive issues. And so what we did was we hired 14 students here and we had living room conversations, train them to facilitate conversations on. Somewhat divisive issues. And we we developed with living room conversations, three different conversation guides. So we chose three topics and we used the students to help us choose these topics.

Jeff Glenn: And the topics were, we talked about COVID and some of the divisive issues around COVID vaccinations and [00:17:00] masks. We talked about mental health related issues here on campus, and that included a whole number of things. And then we had a conversation guide on racism. and faith and how those things interact.

Jeff Glenn: And so these are three hard, like I think often topics that are often really difficult to talk about. And we trained these students to use these structured guides to have structured conversations with small groups of students. And we asked these students before the conversation, we gave him a survey.

Jeff Glenn: About their attitudes on having these types of conversations and attitudes toward different groups. And then after the conversation, we gave them a survey and asked them to tell us about their experience with the conversation. And we asked them to tell, we asked them the same questions about their attitudes towards these types of conversations and different groups.

Jeff Glenn: And we held think 27 total conversations and we had about 120 participants. So we did this mostly last. . And we're writing a paper now and looking at the data and, and [00:18:00] overwhelmingly it was a positive experience for students and we had some really cool findings that students reported that they they were more likely to respect people with different views and feel empathy towards other groups, and felt more comfortable having these types of conversations with people who disagreed with them after having participated in this project.

Jeff Glenn: I loved it. I have to tell you, I thought it was the coolest thing ever. Yeah. And it's fun. It, I was really coming out of those discussions, really hopeful. I'm so impressed with this generation and I'm talking about the college students right now. I think they're better than my generation and they're going to get better at really talking and listening to each other and not, you know, immediately becoming defensive and having, you know, the whole fight or flight response to this.

Jeff Glenn: Like, I have to get away from this cuz I don't like this or I'm gonna beat it up cuz you're wrong and I'm right. . We, we just can't have that anymore. We've seen what that does in our, in our homes, in our communities, in our politics, as you've [00:19:00] talked about. And so I thought it was one of the coolest projects I've, you know, that I've participated in at by U in 15 years.

Jeff Glenn: It was really cool. 

Jeff Glenn: Yeah, I think it was really good. And we're working on a phase two. We have a few of the students who, worked on it last year, who got some additional grant funding to hold more conversations and ask some different research questions. And we're working on it now. And I think you're right.

Jeff Glenn: I think these students are amazing and I think there's a lot of appetite to learn how to do this better. I also think we have challenges that we didn't have. Growing up where we have like social media and other factors that are making it harder in some ways to have these convers types of conversations.

Jeff Glenn: And you know, I I, I, I don't have data in front of me. I can't comment on like these overall trends and how, how the effects of social media on Sure. People being able to talk to each other, but I feel. , it's not always helpful, right? And so I think that if anything, that's even more important now that we have space for people to come together and [00:20:00] have like face-to-face conversations.

Jeff Glenn: with people they might disagree with on certain issues and learn. I think it's not even just about learning. One of the things I like about these living room conversations, these structured conversations, is it's not even about finding common ground. So that I think that can, that can be good if we find common ground.

Jeff Glenn: Mm-hmm. , but we can also. Have a conversation with someone who completely disagrees with us and not come to any common ground, realize that we completely disagree, but we can come away from that conversation, understanding where that person's coming from and respecting them despite our disagreements and come away feeling a, a more of a desire to to.

Jeff Glenn: Be kind and respectful to people, even we, who we disagree with. Brene Brown says and I've heard this quote from her and I think from others too, but she says something like, "it's really hard to hate people close up, so move in." And I think the more we can interact with people across differences, The [00:21:00] easier it is for us to have this respect and understanding and, you know, if enough of us can do that, then maybe society will get a little bit better.

cougar: Pretty cool, huh? I really love it. And I, I have another question for you, but I, first, I really wanna reiterate what you said. It wasn't about finding common ground. I think to, to steal a thought from Jonathan h would be, it's about finding common humanity that I can, because we're face-to-face and you're sharing with me your thoughts and your fears and your hopes and your desires.

cougar: I recognize you're a human and we establish this, this common humanity. And we still have differences and that, you know, and those are gonna ebb and flow as we have additional life experiences and are exposed to different groups and people. And man, it is that common humanity. It's really cool. All right, Jeff, so what is, what is getting you up in the morning right now?

cougar: What are you reading? What are you listening to? What's inspiring you? 

cougar: Yeah, good question. So I just finished I'll, I can talk about a couple things. So I just finished a. This week [00:22:00] that I thought was really cool and I've been really interested in this. I idea. So the book is called How the Word Is Passed, A Reckoning With The History of Slavery Across America.

cougar: I don't know if you've read it, you're a big reader. It's a good one. I'm gonna read it next week though. It's by, it's by Clint Smith. And came out in 2021 and he talked about so he's a writer and a poet and he visits these historical sites in the us some civil war sites and some plantations. And other places.

cougar: And he visits Thomas Jefferson's Plantation and he, he talks about, in this book, his experience visiting these places and these tours, he goes on and talks about how each of them.

cougar: Discuss the history of slavery in our country and, and how we, we remember, and sometimes we forget about the history of slavery and how it influences still. so many of the social dynamics and social factors that our country is facing today and its [00:23:00] a really. A really cool way that he addresses this.

cougar: And I, so I think he has some really profound thoughts on how we should forgive but not ever forget. And I think we have a tendency to want to just forget these things and say, well, that was in the past and now we're in the present, and so can't we just move on? And his argument, I think you would say that sorry.

cougar: His argument. My takeaway of his argument from the book is that we have to remember these things in the right way so that we can reckon with our past and move forward in a productive way in our country. And it's interesting, so I'm doing Europe public health study abroad this summer. Cougar is something that you guys have done I know for a few years in the past, and we've learned a lot from how you've done it.

cougar: And so I was in Germany a couple months ago doing some work to prepare for our study abroad this summer, and we visited a concentration camp and we visited a World War II Museum. And it's so interesting to see how they deal with their Holocaust and their [00:24:00] history and it's so, I think in some ways different, in contrast to this book and how we think about slavery.

cougar: I know the Holocaust was more recent. World War II is more recent, but they don't, they don't whitewash it. They acknowledge it openly and they talk about the, the, the evil of the leaders that led them into that. And they also talk about the humanity of the German people who suffered from the decisions that their leaders made.

cougar: And I think it's just a, a healthier and open, I'm sure not perfect, right. I'm not an expert on this, but seems like a very healthy and open way that they try to reckon with their history and some of the things that happened with it. I think we can learn some stuff from them. So, 

cougar: and having been some of those places, I totally agree.

cougar: I've picked up on some of those same thoughts in Germany and talking to people there as well. So will you tell me the name of the book One more? How the 

Jeff Glenn: word is passed. How the word is passed. Yeah. By Clint Smith. I can't wait. Really good. Really well written. And just interesting [00:25:00] deep thoughts. 

cougar: Okay Jeff, so I do have a question. Yeah. And this actually came from some students, so we're starting a new thing on the Y Health podcast. We're asking students to submit questions for certain guests, and I had no idea that you were a closet survivor fan. 

Jeff Glenn: So yeah, I'm very open. I I didn't know you were a survivor.

Jeff Glenn: Okay, so you 

cougar: need to talk about this. I'm the closet fan then. And you're open with this. . 

Jeff Glenn: Yeah. So I talk about it cuz there's always, there's, there's not a lot of people I think that watch Survivor like anymore, regularly, but the people that do are pretty into it. So I, I often talk about it in my class towards the beginning of the semester and then I have some automatic friends with students who are into it.

Jeff Glenn: But I started watching Survivor when I was in grad school in taking my, taking classes on leadership and group dynamics and organizational behavior. Because you know, I kind of watched it occasionally, but I, as I was watching it at this time of my life, I realized there was [00:26:00] so much that we were talking about that's in these books and that there's the, the organizational behavior theory and team, the team dynamic theory stuff that you see in Survivor.

Jeff Glenn: And so I just became fascinated by it, and I've watched every season now. , I'm watching some with my kindness. I'm like rewatching some. But I think there's a lot of interesting lessons about, about leadership and how one thing in my leadership class that I talk a lot about is how leadership is dangerous.

Jeff Glenn: Because when you actually put your neck out on the line and you take risks, And you try to make things happen. It makes other people feel uncomfortable. And we talk about like in in leadership, like all these examples of Martin Luther King and Gandhi and others who have been literally assassinated for.

Jeff Glenn: Pushing for something that they believed in, right? But even in our organizations, and even in our, our, you know, public health work, we might not get, hopefully literally assassinated, but pe but people get figurative, figuratively, assassinated all the time. They get pushed out [00:27:00] or their opinion gets silenced or they get ignored because they have.

Jeff Glenn: View that's different. And you see that in Survivor all the time, right? Yeah. You see the, whoever steps up to be the leader in the tribe is usually often one of the first ones voted out. Yep. And I think that that's one parallel that I see all the time. So, yeah. So I talk about it. So I'll talk about this, I'll talk about the lessons from Survivor in my class sometimes.

Jeff Glenn: So that's why some, one of my former students must have asked me about this. That is so cool. So here's my, here's my vision. I haven't told you about this. I guess because we haven't talked about Survivor. But I've, I talked about this with a handful of my survivor fans, students that eventually, this is after I get tenure years, so that it'll be harder for them to, can.

Jeff Glenn: is, I'm gonna do survivor study abroad where you, we go somewhere and we, this study abroad, you do, you do projects related to public health. So you have these challenges and you learn stuff. And some of them are fun. But then it's a study abroad about leadership and team group dynamics. Team and group dynamics too.

Jeff Glenn: And you vote someone, I think you can't just send [00:28:00] someone home every day, but maybe they, they sit out. And so we have some way to work it out where you're actually playing the game of Survivor on a study abroad. So that's, That's great vision. At some point in the future, if you want end Cougar, 

cougar: I want in.

cougar: I want in. In fact, I have a file on my computer, which is labeled my survivor application, so Oh yeah. I've gone back and forth many times thinking, do I 

Jeff Glenn: really want to do this? Yeah, you'd be good. You'd be much, you'd do, you'd be much better TV character for you. I don't know. 

cougar: I don't know. You know. I, I mean, there's a, I suppose I have a bit of a man crush on Jeff props and that might be a problem.

cougar: But I, I will say that I think early on in Survivor, and maybe this is true for all of reality tv, I think, I think the producers were trying to grab some folks that would cause a train wreck, right? That would just be an absolute mess because that's good TV and you, you can't turn away, you've got to keep watching.

cougar: I really appreciate what Survivor has done. In a post George Floyd world, because the last couple of [00:29:00] seasons, like he's always said, it's a social game, but the the quality. of participants, their character, their intellect, their ability to communicate. Maybe this is just my perception, it's gone through the roof.

cougar: And what we've seen over the last couple seasons, like I say, is, is a healing and an ability to communicate and to reckon with. some of our, our racism and our inequality in the past. And I know that sounds silly. You're like, dude, you're getting a lot out of survivor. That, that's a lot of subtext cougar.

cougar: But there's been some, there's been some times there where I'm like, I'm tearing up and I'm like, they've done, they've created something here. These participants that is teaching me. I, I just think it's really cool. So yeah, I agree. I just went next level on Survivor. I mean, 

Jeff Glenn: really, I just wanna, yeah. This is another podcast.

Jeff Glenn: We need to Yeah. Start the why Survivor. 

cougar: Podcast. I don't think I could, I don't think I could live on a cup of rice. I get a massive headache on Fast Sunday. I don't know if I could do this, but I so want to Yeah, sign me up for your study abroad. [00:30:00] I'm just concerned that the study abroad might be a five week study abroad and I'm gonna be home in three days cuz the tribe has spoken.

Jeff Glenn: Yeah, that would be bad. But then there, everyone goes on the jury in survivor study abroad. So you're still there and maybe you have to do extra assignments or something. I don't know it, I've got to figure out that. , there's a lot of safety issues we've got to work through. Yeah, yeah. But I'm damaging. Yeah, no, I agree though.

Jeff Glenn: I think like old survivor, older seasons of Survivor, I know that they would cast people, not just who applied, but they would go find models and actors and people, like you said, who they thought would be good TV and who were beautiful people. And now almost everyone is a Survivor fan, and they're not pa, they're casting people who.

Jeff Glenn: Yeah, like you said, intelligent and, and well-spoken and, and thoughtful and fun. Yeah. People. And so they have these like on the show and they're showing it now. Maybe these things happened before, but they weren't showing it, but they're showing these discussions on on race and gender and how that impacts people and how[00:31:00] you know, a few seasons ago there was this discussion of how men find like 80% of the hidden immunity idols on Survivor and how women that play the same game as men are perceived as different, right?

Jeff Glenn: And perceived as like, mean and evil, and men are just assertive. and just like good players and, and I don't think, yeah, I agree. I to totally agree. There's some good discussions and watching this with my kids. Like we've had discussions, you know, a couple seasons ago there was a, a tribal, I don't know how deep into this we want to go

Jeff Glenn: But there's this this tribal council where black women had got to tribal council and saw that the last two or three people to be voted out were also black. Yep. And she said, I don't know if the, I mean, there was this long part of the show where they talked about it and there was some people who disagreed and she said, , I don't think this is right.

Jeff Glenn: I don't like this pattern. I don't like to see where this is going. And there were a lot of deep discussions that they had about whether this was an issue or [00:32:00] not, and whether even if it maybe wasn't, it's something to be aware of. And so I had that when kids were watching that season. You know, I an 11 year old and an eight year old, and that gave us a chance to talk about what was happening.

Jeff Glenn: And we talked about race, and we talked about privilege. perceptions of different people based on our background and stuff. So yeah. Yeah. There I'm all about Survivor. Yep. Let's teach a class on it before study abroad and then can help flesh out the details. I love 

cougar: it. Okay. And, and the season you just mentioned is my favorite.

cougar: I thought it was the most powerful, really great experience. Yeah, and a lot of learning there for me

cougar: this has been an absolute pleasure.

cougar: I hope we have more opportunities for things like campus conversations and a couple more ski days at Deer Valley as well.

cougar: Jeff, you're an amazing friend. 

cougar: Thanks for joining us today. 

Jeff Glenn: Yeah, thanks, Cougar. Good to be here.