Many of us take workplace safety for granted, but not Dr. Steve Thygerson. He and his students aid in “capacity building” in countries that lack the understanding of workplace safety and the resources to implement it.
Bio
Dr. Steve Thygerson is an environmental and occupational health professor at Brigham Young University in Provo, Utah. Prior to his appointment at BYU in 2008, he worked for 9 years in various occupational and environmental health settings in the public and private sector. He is a Certified Industrial Hygienist and past chair of the International Affairs Committee of the American Industrial Hygiene Association. As a Workplace Health Without Borders member, he mentors other occupational hygienists and provides occupational health training worldwide. Those countries include Nepal, Peru, South Africa, Mozambique, Ethiopia, and Pakistan. He loves taking students to these countries as well as focusing on global occupational health. For the past 20 years, he has authored first aid, CPR, and wellness textbooks.
While not at work, he loves to run, mountain bike, backcountry ski, set out on family backpacking trips, and is a wanna-be overland expedition enthusiast.
Click here to read about Dr. Thygerson’s occupational health work in Nepal.
Recorded, Edited & Produced by Paige Sherwood, Isabella Loosle, and Tanya Gale
Many of us take workplace safety for granted, but not Dr. Steve Thygerson. He and his students aid in “capacity building” in countries that lack the understanding of workplace safety and the resources to implement it.
Bio
Dr. Steve Thygerson is an environmental and occupational health professor at Brigham Young University in Provo, Utah. Prior to his appointment at BYU in 2008, he worked for 9 years in various occupational and environmental health settings in the public and private sector. He is a Certified Industrial Hygienist and past chair of the International Affairs Committee of the American Industrial Hygiene Association. As a Workplace Health Without Borders member, he mentors other occupational hygienists and provides occupational health training worldwide. Those countries include Nepal, Peru, South Africa, Mozambique, Ethiopia, and Pakistan. He loves taking students to these countries as well as focusing on global occupational health. For the past 20 years, he has authored first aid, CPR, and wellness textbooks.
While not at work, he loves to run, mountain bike, backcountry ski, set out on family backpacking trips, and is a wanna-be overland expedition enthusiast.
Click here to read about Dr. Thygerson’s occupational health work in Nepal.
Recorded, Edited & Produced by Paige Sherwood, Isabella Loosle, and Tanya Gale
Cougar: [00:00:00] Steve Thygerson, it's great to have you on the Y Health Podcast, my friend. How are you?
Steve: Fantastic, Cougar. It's an honor to be here. I've, I've been interviewed a few times, but I've never done a podcast. You know, I listen to a lot of podcasts. I won't mention which ones I listen to right now, but there's some really good ones out there.
Steve: And, and, and it's an honor to, to actually be here in this kind of free flowing conversation with you. You're doing a great job too.
Cougar: Oh. I don't know if I'm doing a great job, but you've been holding out on us. We're really happy to have you on the show.
Steve: Yeah, great to be here.
Cougar: Will you introduce yourself for our listeners real quick?
Steve: Sure. Uh, Steve Thygursen. I'm full professor here at BYU now. Boy, I get say that for the last couple years. That's great.
Cougar: That's awesome, huh? Congratulations.
Steve: I got my undergrad here at BYU in Zoology. It's actually conservation biology. So if Dr. Lorre, if she I'll, I'll, she fe this Walton Hume when I had her.
Steve: But if she's listening to this, you know, I had her as a as, uh, professor. So then I went from, well, I didn't know what I was gonna do with that degree. [00:01:00] Conservation biology. I, I went on a road trip with my wife and my baby boy, and we went and looked a lot of universities and thought a master's degree is probably what I gotta do, and some sort of wildlife management, something like that's.
Steve: That was kind of my passion at that time, and it just wasn't striking a chord with me. So I, I took a year off and, then my dad kind of clued me into the safety side of things. He's like, you should look at safety. And I'm like, safety, like workplace safety. So I made a call up to the University of Utah and they had this uh, this degree.
Steve: It's an MSPH, masters of Science and Public Health in Industrial Hygiene. And that was, I'd never heard of that word before. industrial hygiene Like, what am I gonna be doing if I go this industrial hygiene route? I'm like, I'm gonna be shining worker's shoes, you know, you know, checking their, what, what am I gonna be doing?
Steve: So industrial hygiene, just a fancy word for you know, worker health now. [00:02:00] So the University of Utah had a, an accredited program through AB. And niosh. And so they received a lot of funding to actually pay for everyth all of my graduate work, my, my master's degree there, plus give me a little bit of a stipend.
Steve: So I came out of the University of Utah uh, with no debt at all. So, wow. I love talking to students about how do you go on and go to more school and actually get paid to go to school. Because we're lacking in this profe, you know, we don't have enough in this profession right now. There's definitely, we're past the grain of the, of the profession, you know, where retirees or folks are retiring, so, wow.
Steve: I went there and, and I thought, yeah, this is fantastic. Then, then I had a, I had a job offer at a national laboratory paying really good money at the time, and, but I thought, you know, there might be a point where I want to go back and teach. , where would I teach? I, I, you know do I really want to go on for more [00:03:00] school?
Steve: But it just felt right. I applied, I applied to some PhD programs and ended up at Colorado State University in another program that had stipends and, and projects. And, and so I ended up at Colorado State. So that's where I finished with a degree in environmental health
Cougar: very cool. And you failed to mention that your, your dad was a professor here in this department.
Cougar: In fact, he was one of my favorite instructors Alton Thygersen so yeah, I mean, it's in your blood, isn't it?
Steve: Oh, definitely. And, when I was at Colorado State, I ended up getting on at Eastman Kodak Company. They have a very large plant out there. Make motion picture.
Steve: all kinds of x-ray product. And so I worked there for quite a while. Then I came back to Utah, worked for an insurance company, WCF Insurance as a consultant, and then byu wanted to start an occupational health program. And I think part of that may have been my dad saying, you know, public health, occupational health is public health.
Cougar: Sure.
Steve: And so [00:04:00] we need, and, and I happen to know somebody . So I interviewed and I started here in 2008. I worked a decade before that in, in industry. And one of the unique things about me and my dad is there was a time where we were teaching classes right next to each other. He was teaching in, I think 2 31 of the Richards building, and I was teaching in 2 35.
Steve: and maybe it's 2 33. I can't remember the exact numbers, but I don't know if that's happened in the history of byu. Maybe somebody could fact check that. Yeah. You know, father and son teaching at the exact same time in classrooms next to each other.
Cougar: And you're both incredible instructors. It really is in your blood.
Cougar: Steve, you're just a great storyteller. Alton's a great storyteller, and that's why I'm excited to have you on the show, that's for sure. Now, you mentioned you're a full professor. I don't know if everyone understands that, but that means you've put the work in and you kept Pedal to the medal here for the last 15 years.
Cougar: So congratulations on that. And sometimes the reward for being a full professor is we have more for you to do. And I feel like that's what's happened for you. So what are you doing right now with B P H A and with the Safety [00:05:00] association and some of those things?
Steve: Yeah. I love mentoring students and that the mentoring at an academic institution takes on a different, you know, a lot of different directions.
Steve: You can, you can have students work with you on your research, on papers presentations, those sort of things work in your lab. I really love the professional associations and the interactions. Students can have with professionals in one of the organizations is called American Society of Safety Professionals ASSP, so we are actually chartered with the national assp.
Steve: and we have a local chapter as well here in Utah who mentor our students. In fact on February 17th, they set up a silent auction and dinner just for our students, for their scholarships. Cool. And so that, that funds several of 'em. So how that actually started though I'll, I'll, I'll mention a couple, couple names.
Steve: Travis Jones and, and Drew Forbes, our former students who are now. Industrial hygienist, you know, like myself they came to me in, I think 2010 [00:06:00] and, and said, we wanna start a, a, a student association. I'm like, oh, I'm, I'm, I'm working on this tenure thing. I'm a brand new professor. I don't know if I have time for that.
Steve: Yeah. But they said, don't you worry. We'll do everything and we'll, we'll, we'll take care of it. So they actually, you. got it started and then the next couple of presidents said, well, we need to get chartered. So this, the, this ASSP I think the, the best thing that comes out of it are is the mentorship with local professionals.
Steve: So we have students who, you know, they'll go to some of the, they're invited to all of the chapter meetings and they meet, you know, just some amazing professionals who are willing to, to, you know, take their hand and show 'em what, what their career path looks like. So that's been a very rewarding experience for me to see students just like, oh yeah, I just signed up as a mentor, as a member.
Steve: You know, I paid my 15 bucks and I didn't know what to expect. And now they're going to have a career in [00:07:00] occupational safety and health. Yeah. That
Steve: networking's
Steve: invaluable. Oh, isn't it? Oh, yeah. Yeah. So that's, that's a, that's an area that's, , you know, I, I kind of, I really, really like that, that area. Now, B P H A, that's the b byu Public Health Association.
Steve: I'm not sure how long this has been around but it's, it's sponsored by our department here, BYU Public Health Department. But this is a, an organization that I think really runs itself. I was asked to, to take over maybe because of some of the success we'd had with A S S P.
Steve: And you know, Dr. Spruance has been in charge of that. I know Stephanie Lutz has been, you know, over that. Yeah. I'm not sure who else, but this really was a, a student led effort and, and I said, I'll take it on, but who do you got as the leadership? And these students are amazing. Yeah. And to see where they're going is even more amazing.
Steve: You know, they're going on to PA schools and medical school and. Being great. He public health professionals and they, they see the [00:08:00] value in being part of a, a professional organization at a very young age because that, that just keeps them involved for, for their entire career. I, I think the best professionals out there are part of these associations, join these associations and are, are in a way giving back to their profess.
Steve: For the next 30, 40 years. It's, it's a, it's a neat thing to see.
Steve: It's
Cougar: pretty cool. And you remember as a student, I mean, sometimes you're just trying to keep your head above water. And I, and I look at so many of our students now, not only are they taking the 16 to 18 credit hours and working 12 to 20 hours a week, and they're, they're volunteering at the hospital or they're shadowing a doctor here, but they're also in, involved in these, in, you know, these.
Cougar: fairly time consuming assignments that they have with these associations and these clubs. But I, what I think is important to note is that when you have that type of involvement and you have the built in social [00:09:00] support that comes with that and that there, it breeds some additional life and energy into you.
Cougar: So it seems like, oh, I can't take on more. But sometimes you take on a little more and everything kind of levels out. So I really, I'm always encouraging our students to get involved. You know, and, and then truthfully, maybe you don't need to take 18 credit hours, maybe take 15 and get, and get involved and be a little , just have a little different perspective on how you want to go about your education rather than rifle through in four years.
Cougar: And then think, okay, now what do I do? I don't, I don't know anyone. I haven't networked. I don't really, I haven't rubbed shoulders with some folks that maybe gave me some direction. So we certainly want students to be on track to graduate, don't get me wrong. But I think, I think I didn't have that perspective, didn't have that mentorship that I think our students can have, and certainly that I think.
Cougar: you've been providing students in the 15 years you've been here, is that mentorship. Yes. You're their professor, but you're also their friend and you're also a career advisor in [00:10:00] so many ways. Linking them up with the right people. Really cool. Really cool.
Cougar: Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's, it's been very rewarding. And, and you know, I, I got a student, he.
Cougar: called me up and said, Hey, I want to take you to lunch. He's been out working in the field for 10 years or so, and just out of the blue called me up and said, yeah, let's go to lunch. You know, and I, I don't know what we're gonna talk about. Maybe, you know, I, maybe he's buying, maybe he's not, I don't know.
Cougar: I'll probably end up buying. But , you know, he's, he's, he's working for a pretty good company, making, making pretty good money as a wonderful family. So I, I look forward to those interactions, you know? Yeah. For years to come. It's really cool, isn't it? Yeah.
Cougar: Yeah. I love it. Tell me, you've also done a, a terrific job in mentoring students, not just in these associations and not just connecting them to future employers.
Cougar: But you've involved them in your research and you've allowed them to interact with you know, people that are doing what we're training them to do, but also in international settings in particular. I'm thinking about Nepal, so I don't know if that's where you wanted to go with this, Steve, but you want to talk a little bit about your, your [00:11:00] work in Nepal and some of the research that's come out of that?
Cougar: Yeah, sure.
Steve: So. , you know, when I, when I became associate professor, so you start at BYU as an assistant professor on, you know, it's here we call it continuing faculty status or a tenure track at, at, you know, many will be familiar with that. But when you become associate professor, the world opens up just a little bit.
Steve: You know, some of that stress goes away of, you know, cuz if you don't make that, you know, be away, he kind of says, bye-bye, you know, good luck. , obviously we're set up for success here though and, and the vast majority are successful here. But I, I owe some of this push to get involved in the international work to my wife.
Steve: She is an international traveler, loves to do that sort of stuff, and she said, you know, you should now, you know, you got a little more freedom, I guess, and. , why don't you look at what, how you can be involved internationally, and then your students will be able to be involved internationally. And so I went to a professional organization.
Steve: I went to a I H A, American [00:12:00] Industrial Hygiene Association. They have a conference in expo every year. I'll never forget this. I went down to San Antonio. I met a lady named Marianne Levitzky, who runs an organization called Workplace Health Without Borders, W h WB NGO out of Canada. And then I met a, a gentleman named bill Carter.
Steve: Bill Carter worked, you know, he'd been doing some pro bono work for W H W B, and, and he'd been in Nepal since about 2007, 2008, working with them in building capacity. So he'd go over there and help them. At their universities, like Capmandu University, Tribu, Avon University start an occupational health and safety program teaching undergrads and grads.
Steve: Because you go to some of these developing countries and they, they may have one person in the entire country who knows anything about occupational safety in Nepal, there's, there's one physician who actually treats. Work injured workers. There's one PhD level safety and health professional [00:13:00] there.
Steve: So the very much lacking some. So he came to me and said, I'm retiring. I, someone needs to kind of take this on. So in, in 2014 is when I got involved with the area is brick kilns. Yeah, brick factories. Cool. So, so making brick. And when you start thinking about that, okay, what in the world, what's, how can you get injured or ill at a brick factory?
Steve: Well, let me take you to Nepal. Yeah, please. And or any of these other countries where bricks are made. Cuz you go to some of these, especially in Asia and Africa, and the majority of these buildings are made out of brick. So number of hazards exist there. So our job. was to identify, you know, recognize these hazards whether it's silica, which is floating around in the, in the air, because their soil that they make this brick out of is chalk full of, of silica.
Steve: So, and that leads to a, [00:14:00] a, a long-term disease called silicosis. And is irreversible fatal? Or there might be ergonomic issues as well. So you have. . You know, you have these ladies who are carrying 180 pounds on their back of bricks as they and their legs are bowed, their hips are damaged. And then we even get into, I've done some work with the International Labor Organization on child labor, you know, and, and, and even in many of these countries, child labor is, is, you know, it's banned.
Steve: Shouldn't happen. But what ends up happening is both parents are. , they have little babies. Who do you think is taking care of that little baby? It's the nine and 10 year old girl or boy who then doesn't go out and play, doesn't get schooled while their parents are out working. They're taking care of the little ones.
Steve: So there, there's, there's the runs the whole gamut of of societal issues that, that exist when you have hazards in the workplace. , other [00:15:00] types of, you know, you know, slave labor still exists in many countries. Sure. Bonded labor. So that's where the international Labor organization comes into play.
Steve: But, but how the students have been involved is, and, and this is what has really, where I've kind of laid my mark, is we trained them. , we train them how to take air samples, how to recognize and evaluate these you know, the sils and, and particulate pollution, indoor air quality hazards. Then they go over there and they train.
Steve: graduate students at Capmandu University, Tribu Von University. So you have these, these students who are like, oh yes, I, I can do this. And, and so it's kind of a train the trainer type program is what we're doing. And, and I think it, it kind of lands the spark in these students' eyes of, yeah, I like this.
Steve: This is building capacity. This is, you know, we're not, we're not coming in and solving their [00:16:00] problems. They're, they're going to figure it out because we're, we're kind of laying. , that foundation of, okay. Occupational safety and health is something that we greatly need here in, in, in, in this country. So I've been taking students along with Dr.
Steve: Jim Johnston. We've been going over there since 2018. We work in the brick factories. We do community health evaluations. We take the students on Trek, you know, they get a Go Trek in the foothills of the Himalayas and, and just some, just see the beauty of Nepal. Dr. Johnston is taking a group over in March.
Steve: I've been doing an, an internship for the last several years. And that's in conjunction with several organizations. And, and one that I, I kind of market to the students is you're gonna work hand in hand with some top physicians out of Nepal and out of Johns Hopkins University along with many other, you know, research professionals.
Steve: So it's been a, it's been a fairly successful collaboration with [00:17:00] those, with those groups over there.
Cougar: Well, yeah, in a lot of ways too, because, You're mentoring students, you're exposing students to, you know, the skills that they'll be able to really use and, and to train others in those skills. And it's also produced a lot of peer reviewed manuscripts, which is still the currency in our profession.
Cougar: I know BYU has a hyper focus on student in student-centeredness, and yet you really need to do both. You need to be able to work with students and mentor them and, and share testimony with them and build them up and prepare them for, for being successful in life. But at the same time, you still need to be able to contribute to the knowledge, you know, to.
Cougar: The knowledge base, the literature, and so what a productive project. Right?
Steve: Yeah, it's been fantastic. I, you know, on, on more of a, a personal level, some of my best friends are living over there. I've worked very closely with him and if you look at some of our, our peer reviewed publications, he's [00:18:00] first author on many of those.
Steve: And I've been able to be a senior author and mentor him through many of those publications. And, and Sanjay Canal, he is, he's been the professor at Catman University who I've worked very closely with. So these, these friendships that, that have, you know, we've fostered and, and then you go over there and my, I've taken my family over there.
Steve: We did a sabbatical for, for a few months. And they have a small little branch over there, and my wife is very good friends with, with several of those folks that it's just, it's wonderful to see the, the gospel in their eyes and, and, and yet their, their Hindu culture as well. Very vibrant, you know, very exciting, but, Mixing in, you know, their Christianity and their love of the savior and and their love of service and, and everything that, that just brings to, to enhance their life.
Cougar: Yeah. So cool. Okay. Let me throw you a curve ball, Steve, because you're a safety specialist. I'm a recovering driver, ed instructor, . Oh man. [00:19:00] That's part of my life. Love you. I don't talk a lot about that, but when I've taught my my own kids, I've taught 'em how to drive, certainly and. Oh, my dear wife sits in the back and she's like, I'm so sorry, your dad.
Cougar: He can't get rid of this. It's just, it's , it's in his blood. So yeah, we're always talking about mirror, signal, head check and like you did, that was not a legit head check. Tell me, I would, I would love for there to be one or two actionable items or take homes for our listeners and they may or may not be making bricks in a kiln in in Cat mandu.
Cougar: is, is from a safety specialist perspective, is there a couple things that we should be doing at home, at work, or commuting from home to work that will make a difference for each of us? Yeah. Let's promote health here for a
Steve: moment, if you don't mind. Absolutely. You know, so when I started here at byu, you, you do have to develop a, you know, a research agenda.
Steve: and, you know, occupational health is much slower, [00:20:00] you know, in, in order to produce there, it, it takes a lot longer, you know, a couple years. So I started working with Ray Merrill and Ray Merrill. I consider a very good friend and a, and a mentor in taking me through the statistical analysis of motor vehicle crashes.
Steve: And I worked with some professionals at the University of Utah and, and we looked very closely at work-related motor vehicle crashes and, and where they're happening. We had a lot of data. . And one thing that stood out very clear was where are these fatal crashes happening? And if you're listening, you, you see a lot of crashes on freeways, right?
Steve: Well, many of those are not fatal because freeways are set up to be fairly safe, even though we're traveling at very high speed. The, the most dangerous areas are some of these high speed intersections, you know, so if you've driven Bangerter Highway or the Mountain View Corridor, or Pioneer Crossing these are high speed inter intersections, greater than 45 miles per hour.
Steve: And [00:21:00] then people flying through them at, at 50, 60 miles per hour when the posted speed limit may be. So they're going 10, 15 miles an hour through an inter. that's controlled. Right. But I I, I like to use kind of a Jason born analogy. Oh,
Cougar: don't get me going on Jason born. You want I love, I love me some Jason Bourne.
Cougar: Yeah.
Steve: So I, I would love for people to be one, it it, it, it's kind of about defensive driving, you know? So imagine yourself being the Jason born as you enter an intersection, one of these high speed intersections you are noticing. everything. You're seeing the pedestrian, you're seeing the car that's inching out just a little bit.
Steve: But in order to do that, you have to slow down a little bit. You can't be going through these at, if the posted speed limit is 60, I don't want you going through that intersection at 60 miles an hour. you let, you do not accelerate during, through these intersections, these high-speed intersections, you [00:22:00] lay off the gas and I and you cover the brake and that's where your eyes can start really looking at who's inching out, what's that car in front that that car looks like and wants to make a left in front of me?
Steve: That's the one that's gonna get me, you know, think who's going to get, it's almost like a game, I guess, except this is about. Really the, this is where fatalities happen, is in these high speed intersections. You'll see the cars, the, the, just the carnage that comes out, you know, in these cars. And, and, and you know, if there's, if, if I can get you thinking about,
Steve: I'm gonna live when I go through that intersection, but there's many who haven't. You know, the, they're the, these are very dangerous intersections. There's engineers who've spent their life trying to figure out how can we make these intersections safer? You know, there's, there's actually engineers at our, at our university as, as you travel along some of these, those, those yellow lights that flash saying, Hey, [00:23:00] prepare to stop.
Steve: Guess what? Those are timed perfectly. So when you see that flashing, it's not a time to speed up. , it's a time to slow down or no. Okay. Yeah. I'm, I, they, they're helping me out prepared to, to slow down at these high speed intersections. So when my students go out for, you know, we have, well, we have a one day spring break, right?
Steve: We got, we got fall, you know, and we got Thanksgiving. So I, I'd like to tell my students that one specific thing is be the Jason born of driving. Notice everything. And then the one specific thing is that these, these high speed intersections lay off the gas, cover the brake, and just start looking at the hazards.
Steve: Yeah.
Cougar: Keep your head on a swivel. Jason Boren, he's got a head on a swivel. He's
Steve: anticipating and notice he's not running where he is going, right? Yeah, he's walking fairly fast. You know, it, it, it's kinda like the firefighter firefighters don't run [00:24:00] into a building. They walk in, they're surveying the. Yeah, they're, they're, it's a scene size up.
Steve: Okay. Yeah. What's going on? That's what you're doing when you're entering these intersections. Really
Cougar: hard to anticipate the behavior of other drivers and to survey the scene when you're looking at your phone. Mm. Or you're distracted from, you know, it doesn't have to be the phone, but that, that's often the distraction.
Cougar: At this point in time. Great, great counsel, great advice spoken both as a movie buff and a safety specialist. I love it. Steve, I really appreciate your time today. People are gonna love hearing from you on your way out the door. Can you share with us what are you reading right now? What are you listening to?
Cougar: Or maybe moreover, what gets you excited? Like what's getting Steve Thon out of bed in the morning? Like ready and pumped for
Steve: life? Yeah. Okay. ? Well, what's getting me out of bed in the morning is a balanced lifestyle. I love to work. I love to play. So [00:25:00] I think, what am I gonna do today to work? What am I gonna do today to play?
Steve: And that play involves family. You know, that play is pretty much everything else. So that I, I, I think about that almost on a daily basis. How am I making today balanced. . And so I love to listen to podcasts. Podcasts are my way of getting information. So if you haven't found a good podcast, you know, this is stuff you can, you know, get pretty easy these days.
Steve: And, and so anything on balanced lifestyle is, is kind of what I read, what what I listen to. I. , you know, I have a fairly long commute. I, I'm about 35, 45 minutes depending on traffic. And, and one of my favorite things to do recently is on the Gospel app you can pull up old conference talks going back, you know, listening to them back to 1971.
Steve: And boy, what a difference that makes. You know, listening to like a La Grande Richards speak in 1979, there's a really, there's a gem of a talk from 1979 or, or, [00:26:00] you know, some of these, these, these talks from, you know, just back in the day and, and even in the eighties, I'm like, yeah, I, I, I think I was at that meeting when I was a deacon
Steve: Yeah. So they just, it brings back memories. But just the gospel insight is, is incredible. And, And I, I love, I love hearing those, those old school voices, you know, back in my head telling me to, Hey, be good. Do, do good. You'll, you'll be all right. You know? But also have some grit, you know, and and, but, but things are gonna be okay.
Steve: We're gonna win in the end. Yeah. And if I can then, with the, there's also this. Quote from a song Mumford and Sons. Yeah. That I, I, I put, I had a son serve a mission in Croatia and to, to sign off, you know, he all my, all my kids who have been on missions, like, how, you know, how do I, how do we get through to folks, you know, how do you know are, are they listening to the gospel?
Steve: You know, how do I teach them [00:27:00] more about Christ? And, and this song by Mumford and Sons is called Only Love will Win in the. and I wrote that to him every day. Or, or not every day, every week when I wrote him an email, it was Tanner. Remember, only love will win in the end. Cool.
Cougar: I don't think I should say anything.
Cougar: I think, I think that's the mic drop. Steve. Love it. Thank you for your time
Steve: today. You're amazing. Thanks again, an honor to be here.
Cougar: Thanks. Uh, You're the best brother. All the best.